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mafafu
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I'm not sure if I'm qualified to speak on this matter, but nevertheless, I have been doing some research on the matter at the Imperial Library. Three of Vivec's Lessons seem to be of specific import with this subject. Those Lessons are 11, 13, and 15.
One thing that confuses me is the fact that the content of these lessons are supposed to occur before the Tribunal taps the heart of Lorkhan. It seems as if Vivec knew quite a bit about what was going on, what was about to happen, and what would eventually happen. It seems as if he was a great prophet at this point. Can anyone clear this up for me?
Also, what is the 'Sharmat'? and where does this reference originate? I believe from these lessons that the Sharmat means Dagoth Ur. Any comments?
Another problem that worries me is the extent to which Vivec's writings can be trusted. The Trinbunal, like many other gods, would not seem to be the most trustworthy sources. However, if I had to chose one of the Tribunal to trust, it would be Vivec.
The Lessons of Vivec hold some great mysteries. It seems I will need to read them all closely, but I am having trouble even fathoming just these three lessons at the moment.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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i believe Sharmat sounds Orsimer (orcish) but i know the nords of skyrim called the heart of lorkhan: shor ( see the 5 songs of wulfheart or something like that) ....maybe a connection
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---->~*^ Not a Member of the Forum Scholars Guild^*~<----
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Nigedo
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You may also wish to take a look at Sermon 17 and examine your understanding from the perspective of Sermon 21 and the interpretations available on this forum.
This is probably the most difficult of the four Whirling School research topics. I look forward to reading your conclusions, assuming that you intend to submit them as a paper. 
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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I'm pretty sure the Sermons were written well after the Tribunal tapped the Heart. They are what you might call revisionist history... that is to say they're not necessarily truth in the sense in which most of us use that word.  In particular I doubt Nerevar was as much of a dwink as the Sermons make him out to be.
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*sorry but was my interpretation correct as the name Shamat being Orismer (Osrimer?)
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---->~*^ Not a Member of the Forum Scholars Guild^*~<----
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mafafu
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I'm not sure whether your interpretation is wrong or not. I do believe that Sharmat refers to Dagoth Ur, but I am unsure as to where it comes from. What I really wanted was just some confirmation for my suppositions.
Allerleirauh: Thanks for the info, I think that will help.
Nigedo: Thanks for the references. I'll try to post anything I learn in the next couple of days here. I made a comment in your original School thread about the possibility of a paper. It basically depends on my success in my studies.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.'
Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been.
One idea, however, became jealous and did not want to die; like the stasis, he wanted to last. This was the demon Anui-El, who made friends, and they called themselves the Aedra. They enslaved everything that Sithis had made and created realms of everlasting imperfection. Thus are the Aedra the false gods, that is, illusion.
So Sithis begat Lorkhan and sent him to destroy the universe. Lorkhan! Unstable mutant!
Lorkhan had found the Aedric weakness. While each rebel was, by their nature, immeasurable, they were, through jealously and vanity, also separate from each other. They were also unwilling to go back to the nothing of before. So while they ruled their false dominions, Lorkhan filled the void with a myriad of new ideas. These ideas were legion. Soon it seemed that Lorkhan had a dominion of his own, with slaves and everlasting imperfections, and he seemed, for all the world, like an Aedra. Thus did he present himself as such to the demon Anui-El and the Eight Givers: as a friend.
Go unto the sharmat Dagoth Ur as a friend.
AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI.
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---->~*^ Not a Member of the Forum Scholars Guild^*~<----
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checkmate?
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---->~*^ Not a Member of the Forum Scholars Guild^*~<----
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Quote:
" 36 Lessons of Vivec
The Imperial Library (formerly Xanathar's Library) is a library of all Elder Scrolls lore and legends.
... of the center. The sharmat will believe there is. He will feel that he ...
... second way. The sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if ...
... "Hortator and sharmat, one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. ...
... black sea. 'The sharmat sleeps at the center. He cannot bear to see ...
http://12.145.63.45/~xanathar/mwbooks/lessons.shtml • "
what we seek is somewhere here
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---->~*^ Not a Member of the Forum Scholars Guild^*~<----
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mafafu
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Ah yes. Thanks for leading me to Sithis. This also seems useful.
Also:
AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI.
Any ideas?
PADHOME = Padomay?
LKHAN = Lorkhan?
the rest?
Also, in sermon 15:
AE GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON
Any ideas? Anybody know the translation?
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Sharmat is a Dunmer, or possibly Aldmeris, word. It most likely means Devil since Dagoth Ur is called the devil by many Dunmer.
HERMA MORA = Hermaeus Mora
Vivec, or whoever wrote the sermons, does seem to know much of what is to come. There is quite a bit of foreshadowing to the events that take place in Morrowind, the game. As for understanding it not many do and what you take out of it depends soley on how you choose to intrepret its words.
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The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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Trust in Truth.
Are Vivec's sermons trustworthy in they're truth?
The Center that Cannot Hold is part of Mundus. Whirling to and fro we are, and those moments when the spokes of the inner give are the same as when Akatosh is broken.
Let us look at this another way.
Suppose we have a circle, with a point in the middle. Now this center and circle combination has spokes, which we define as the laws of nature. When these spokes are destroyed, the circle will have no place to go but towards the center. This center then holds the circle as it spins, only now it is spinning outside of its own realm, and into others which lie outside of it. If we suppose that outside this circle lies another circle, then breaking the spokes of the inner circle will in effect bring it closer to the outer one.
I would assume that when this center eventually gives, if it does at all, would cause the inner circle to yet spin further outside its realm and into Aurbis.
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mafafu
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I've come to a slightly better understanding of this subject. However, one reference that troubles me more than most (that is, I have the most trouble explaining) is:
Quote:
I am the killer of the weeds of Veloth. Veloth is the center that cannot hold.
from Vivec's sermon 13. Any clues as to what this means?
Veloth was the one who led the Chimer to Resdayn and led them in their worship of the Daedra. Perhaps this was Vivec's way of saying that Daedra worship was on the decline and the Tribunal were the new gods.
However, it seems as if Vivec's other references to the 'center' refers to the (center of the) Tribunal itself, for which he also foresaw a downfall.
There also seems to be several other interpretations of 'center' as well. Of these, The heart of Lorkhan and of the Mundus itself are the most interesting prospects. It may be that Vivec was speaking of more than one 'center' during these sermons.
More to come later, hopefully. Any other ideas or interpretations are welcome and appreciated.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Regarding Sharmat
It is an actual word...
It is originally a word from Arabic meaning a sexual priest and, more recently a "foul prostitute"..."devil temptress" and the associated imagery.
in other, blunter words, a wh*re.
help anyone?
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----~^/*Forum Scholars Guild Member*\^~----
Subtle bearer of the Cup of Face Snaked Ayem, Child of the Hall with Many Odd Angles.
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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Just for the sake of argument, is there ever a center that COULD hold? Or is the whole concept of a center something inherently vulnerable to destruction and fragmentation?
It's only an analogy; don't put too much stress on it. It's useful as far as it goes.
I would tend to read the Veloth reference as a statement that the way of Veloth is the way ordinary Dunmer govern their behavior in the Mundus. As opposed to the esoteric church of these teachings. Or he could be using "Veloth" to mean the entire Velothi people. Who, by virtue of existing in the Mundus, are subject to the whims of temporality. Witness the irony of Nerevar returning as a female Nord...
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mafafu
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Your comments make sense. I'm beginning to think that there is no one answer as the references are made about different subjects and because there may not be a specific answer.
I believe though, that the center in the first half of Sermon 13 refers to the Triune House which Vivec is then describing. He speaks of a transformation, and then mentions that the center cannot hold. I believe this may be speaking of the eventaul collapse of the Tribunal.
The center, in this case, is exactly that, a center. In the center of the Tribunal lies the Heart of Lorkhan, but it is not the center itself. ("The heart that lay dormant at the center that cannot hold", Sermon 13). When 'center' is used later, it does perhaps refer to the Heart itself, which has been considered the heart of Mundus as well.
Perhaps Vivec is using the metaphor of the center of the wheel, described in Sermons 17 and 21 to also describe the Tribunal. It seems very possible at this point considering the varieties of his usage of the term, that it does indeed mean many things. Perhaps Vivec is fond of the term and uses it where appropriate.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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mafafu,
In Sermon 13, Vivec describes an abstract construct of interrelated ideals.
This construct certainly has symbolic levels that are specific to ALMSIVI, but even while disregarding these (which I invite you to do), its essential characteristics are supported in more accessable ideals and feature in texts such as "The Changed Ones" and "The Firmament".
For example, the triangle which is rotated is a gateway, a portal that must be viewed from an alternative perspective to become available (Sermon 21). Vehk briefly mentions the same gateway elsewhere in this forum, when discussing his 'Book Of Hours'.
When attempting to interpret this Sermon and all of the Lessons, I urge you to reject the swamp of meanings that you first see and remember the words of Vivec,
"Proceed only with the simplest terms, for all others are enemies and will confuse you."
As for the truth of Vivec's teachings, Sotha Sil has said this;
"Vivec is a poet. Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to seize the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth."
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Quote:
Just for the sake of argument, is there ever a center that COULD hold?
The Second Coming by W.B. Yeats
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
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Oh, hush, you.
That's one of a small handful of poems I can actually recite from memory...
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mafafu
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Vehk's more recent teachings have shed new light on this subject for me, along with your guidance, Nigedo.
Quote:
The center of the Wheel was another circle, the hub, which held everything together. The etada called this Mundus.
So, the Mundus is the center of the wheel that holds everything together. But for some reason, at some point, it cannot hold, apparently.
Quote:
We are the hub, the Mundus that goes by many names. We are the heart of all creation. What does this mean? Why should we care? Lorkhan created it so that we could find what he did. In fact, and here is the secret: the hub is the reflection of its creators, the circle within the circle, only the border to ours is so much easier to see. Stand in its flux and remain whole of mind. Look at it sideways and see the “I”.
Lorkhan discovered the Tower when he came to the edge of the Aurbis. The Tower is the "I", the circle, the border of the Aurbis, viewed sideways. Based on this quote, I believe Lorkhan wanted others to share in his discovery, the "I" in the cosmos.
Quote:
What is the Tower’s secret?
How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.
It seems as if the Tower represents the transcendance into divinity. Lorkhan wanted those of the Mundus to be able to strive for more than their temporal existences. The triangle (Sermon 13) is the gateway to the tower.
The center, Munuds, holds together the wheel, but it also holds mortals to their mortal lives. This is the interesting part, and also the most theoretical. The center cannot hold those that see the tower, the "I" in the cosmos. This includes the Tribunal, perhaps others that have achieved divinity, and the Aedra and Daedra as well.
This still speaks nothing of how one goes about viewing the circle sideways, or exactly what this means, though. But, Lorkhan wanted others to see the divine, the "I", so it seems appropriate that his heart can be used to achieve a sort of divinity.
Well, there's my first real theory of the center that cannot hold. Tell me I'm right. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me what you think.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Excellent theory.
Almost the exact same conclusions I have come to on this subject, except for one thing. Seeing the tower does not confer 'Divinity' in the sense of the word I use. Perhaps an understanding, but not power. To become truly Divine is to not be mortal, and therefore anything which exists here(Mundus) is not Divine, but bound by endless limitations.
Nothing is perfect and Nothing lasts forever, this is why becoming truly Divine means becoming Nothing at all.
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Oblivion is pure chaos correct? in another dimension....now, i am a simple mind, but im seeing some sort of prophetic vision metaphor mabob......so the center of the hub is the mortal plane, and the gods are the spokes to the out rim...? eh? if this IS what u were saying, then i have a theory of the creation of mundus with Padomay and Anu
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---->~*^ Not a Member of the Forum Scholars Guild^*~<----
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Okay, but you're skipping something... the circle within the circle. Us common folk don't have to go all the way out to the rim, we've got our own Tower right here.
As for viewing it sideways... I've always found that it helps to do something stupid, and therefore unexpected. It's at the edges that there are cracks.
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mafafu
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But would you need to leave Mundus to see the "I" ? If this is the case, then you need to become divine, and only then could you see the "I", the tower that is the sideways circle, which is Mundus. Also, there is the outer circle of the Aurbis. Is the Mundus the "secret tower within the tower" of which Sermon 21 speaks?
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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You got it, boss.
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Too shallow my friend. There are mortals that have left this realm and gone to others. They even returned. A few examples I could give would be Sotha Sil and Divayth Fyr. It is quite possible to leave mundus and return, though I doubt divinity is a pre-requisit for traveling the planes.
I think you confuse divinity with power. Surely those mentioned above have the power to traverse the outer realms and still return here, but does that make them divine? Hardly.
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I'm not sure what importance divinity has to the subject... Vehk has lost his divinity, but apparently not his insight. If knowing were all that were necessary to godhood the destruction of the heart would not matter.
The Tower isn't about traveling the outer planes, either... the Aedra do that all the time without comprehending the Tower.
Edited by Allerleirauh (06/30/03 03:34 PM)
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I'm really using divinity loosely here. I actually never considered the Tribunal divine, but I needed a word to represent their transcendance and power, so I just used the word that the Temple is fond of (I think).
Regardless, the answer to the original question would appear to be 'no,' because, as you mentioned, some who are definitely not divine have left the Mundus. But this is a good thing, because it leaves hope for us mortals.
This still leaves the question of seeing the "I" open. What is it to see the "I"? Is it just, "oh there's the side of the wheel, kinda looks like an 'I', huh..." I doubt this. It must be some revelation or, as Alle put it, insight, into the cosmos. How does one come by this insight. Perhaps the Tribunal's power allowed them this insight, although this power is by no means necessary in order to understand the "I". Hmmm.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Exactly.
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If this gave the divinity (Tribunal) "insight" into the mortal and immortal planes (The hub thingy), then that would explain how vivec could tell the future...then again, the books were prolly written AFTER he says he wrote them.
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The Elder Scrolls Imperial Library
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Quote:
One thing that confuses me is the fact that the content of these lessons are supposed to occur before the Tribunal taps the heart of Lorkhan. It seems as if Vivec knew quite a bit about what was going on, what was about to happen, and what would eventually happen. It seems as if he was a great prophet at this point. Can anyone clear this up for me?
This is what i was responding too in my last post
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And i hate posting 3 times in a row, but isnt there a daedric god of destiny? Hermeaus Mora? right? he might have givin Vivec visions, because H. Mora DEFINATELY knew what was gonna happen.
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The Elder Scrolls Imperial Library
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Quote:
that would explain how vivec could tell the future...then again, the books were prolly written AFTER he says he wrote them
Also, I believe that Vivec states in the game that he exists both inside and outside of time. Considering this, it seems likely that he could see the future as easily as the present. It didn't bother me that Vivec could foresee the fall of the Tribunal, but that he could see it even before he had attained godhood seemed disturbing. As Alli mentioned, this was likely written after the Tribunal's ascension.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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mafafu,
The gate is known to very few though its promise is to mortals first.
It is well matched in nature to the enchantments of the Middle Dawn yet wholly different (or perhaps only half different), perhaps a reflection, like the moons upon a lake, dark and forboding.
Find it in the 'Book Of Hours' and then ask yourself again, or perhaps for the first time; "What cannot hold and why should it be 'useful'?"
(13, 21 why are they?).
Go elsewhere and confirm everything you fear to be true.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Mr Nigedo
Mi thot-makir not work wel now. Plees explane mor.
EDIT: Ahem.
My cognitive abilities are not presently working at peak condition. Please elaborate.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
Edited by mafafu (07/04/03 01:30 PM)
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mafafu
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Okay, time to resurrect this study just a bit. I'm going to go a bit further than last, but I'll also be further out on a limb, theorywise.
Vivec's Sermon 21, Sermon 13, and the Book of Hours are the key texts for the this discussion.
Just as a bit of a refresher, for me as much as anyone else, I previously mentioned the 'Center that cannot Hold' referred to the ability to transcend the Mundus or at least coming to some fundamental understanding of the nature of the cosmos.
From Sermon 21:
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Fifth:
'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all
you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'
Sixth:
'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'
Seventh:
'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'
Eighth:
'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'
The center of the first tower is the begotten hole. The first tower is the Mundus. The hole possibly refers to the hole where Lorkhan's heart was before being torn out. Because the Mundus was Lorkhan's idea in the first place, one might say that the real birthplace of the Mundus is in Lorkhan's heart. This ground is a little shaky here, but I think it explains the use of the terms "begotten" and "womb-ready".
Now I will suggest that this hole is also a hole in the Mundus into the Beginning Place. This is possibly the key to the center.
Sermon 13:
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Rotate the triangle and you pierce the heart of the Beginning Place
The triangular gate is at the center of the heart of the second serpent, Lorkhan. (See Sep in Yokudan Pantheon). Seeing this from a certain perspective is to see the tower; to see the "True Self within the Universal Self" (Book of Hours). The Tower pierces the Beginning Place.
Now, let's look at Sermon 13:
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The center cannot hold. It becomes devoid of lines and points. It becomes devoid of anything and so becomes a receptacle. This is its usefulness at the end. This is its promise.
The Center is a recepticle, but it apparently cannot hold anything. Notice that 13 says "It becomes devoid of anything;" that is, it contains nothing. This brings up something interesting said by Alastor Grimwald earlier in this thread, "Nothing is perfect and Nothing lasts forever, this is why becoming truly Divine means becoming Nothing at all."
But it possibly once held everything, being the birthplace of the Mundus. Now, it is empty.
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What is the Tower’s secret?
How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.
This seems like saying, "One's place in the universe is nowhere, one person is nothing in the universe." But realizing this may lead to becoming "everything," because if the Beginning Place or the center holds nothing, then entering it means becoming everything. But if the center "cannot hold," this may be impossible.
That is why seeing the tower is only a realization, not a transcending, but using the tower to pierce the center (Beginning Place?) may be a way to transcend the Mundus.
Comments please.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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Mafafu,
This is truly excellent. I am deeply encouraged by your progress with this subject.
Here is something more for you to consider regarding the notion that the center is described as "the begotten hole... exact and without enchantment".
I ask you to ask yourself "What is enchantment?" and therefore what should it mean to become "without enchantment" (I say here "become", since the hole is 'begotten' and, by implication, an extension of its forebearer).
This is from Sermon 20;
'How came you to be immune to spears?' [asked Vivec]
To which Moon Axle replied, 'Mine is a dual nature, and protean. I am in fact made of many straight lines, though none last too long. In this way I have learned to ignore all true segments.'
[edit]
[Vivec] said: 'Let this overtake you,' and Moon Axle was overtaken by the curvatures of stolen souls. They wrapped about the monster like resin, until finally he could not move, nor could his dual nature.
Vivec said, 'Now you are solved,' and pierced his child with Muatra. Moon Axle had been reduced to something static, and therefore shattered.
What comparisons can you draw between the nature and fate of Moon Axle (a very telling name indeed) and your understanding of the center as it relates to Lorkhan?
Incidentally, it is no coincidence that Sermons 13 and 21 (IMO as you have correctly identified) are the best two sources for this subject. As I asked earlier, but this time perhaps more clearly, try to understand the numerological significance of 13 and 21.
This may well be the key that you are looking for, since I believe that they represent the same entity viewed from two different absolute perspectives.
Finally, in my previous (obscure) words on this subject, I invited you to take a look at 'The Book Of Hours'. Although you have referenced this work as a source in your findings, you have offered no examination of it.
The only available excerpts from that particular text (other than a snippet given in Sermon 31) are from a discourse by Vivec.
Enough from me. I look forward to the next installment. 
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Well, here goes, again.
Enchanting is infusing normal, non-magical substances or items with magical properties.
The only connection I can make with the comment in Sermon 21 is that the begotten hole is without magic. Perhaps this has something to do with Magnus, the personification of magic in ES lore and the architect of Mundus. Perhaps the Mundus is magical, that is, under the influence of magic, while the Beginnning Place is not.
Sermon Thirteen. According to Sermon 29, 13 means the serpent. Also, in "The Firmament":
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Each of the Guardians protects its three Charges from the thirteenth constellation, the serpent.
From the Elder Scrolls Cosmology FAQ at TIL:
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What are constellations?
Constellations are collections of stars. Since each star is a bridge to magic, constellations are very powerful phenomena, and are revered. There are generally accepted to be thirteen constellations. Nine of these are made up completely of stars. Three others are called guardian constellations, as they are each governed by a Dominion Planet. The Dominion Planets are Akatosh (eye of the Warrior), Julianos (eye of the Sage), and Arkay (eye of the Thief). The last constellation is made up of unstars, and is called the Snake.
Remember, this snake is Lorkhan, or at least a representation thereof. The snake is made up of 'unstars' or holes into a void(?). The are perhaps holes in space or in the fabric of the Mundus into a void (and stars into the Aetherius). Just as the Begotten Hole is possibly a hole into the Beggining Place. And if stars are bridges to magic, then unstars are bridges to unmagic, thus the Begotten Hole is 'without enchantment.'
Remember that the Guardian Constellations guard their three charges from the Serpent. Why is it that the constellations need protection from the Serpent?
From the Yokudan Creation myth in the Monomyth:
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Sep, however, needed more punishment, and so Tall Papa squashed the Snake with a big stick. The hunger fell out of Sep's dead mouth and was the only thing left of the Second Serpent. While the rest of the new world was allowed to strive back to godhood, Sep could only slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars."
Sep (Lorkhan) is a void that tries to devour the bridges to magic. One possile reason for this is the description that the stars were laid out as they are by Tall Papa (Akatosh) in order for lesser spirits to learn how to transcend the Mundus. Sep, now being cut off from this re-attainment of godhood, tries to stop others from doing just that. However, his Heart, and perhaps his void (hole) will allow for this same type of activity.
(BTW, the setting of the stars by Akatosh is very realted to the Walkabout that phil_t mentions.)
Interesting are the words "strive back to godhood." I forgot that the mortals of Tamriel are descended from the et'Ada, the Original Spirits. So, attaining godhood and transcending the Mundus is merely coming back to one's original state. Also, if I recall correctly, Altmer blame Lorkhan for separating them from the Spirit Plane and wish to once again inhabit it (or to inhabit it for the first time as their original fate would have been, if not for Lorkhan).
I've yet to spend adequate time with the Book of Hours, but here are some preliminaries:
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"The middle dawn is an axis for the spirits of the Foretime. As such, many of the beliefs of the primitive psijiics cannot be discounted; here, in this place, are proofs within proofs…
...
“…and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies. Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen…
I don't know exactly to what the middle dawn refers to, but this refers to it as "the numinous gateway." I would suggest that this refers to the gateway Vivec mentions on Sermon 21. Being "an axis for the spirits of the Foretime" suggests to me that this refers to a time of the et'Ada before (or possibly during) the creation of the Mundus. This further supports my theory that the 'begotten hole' leads in to the Beginning Place (or perhaps it is Aetherius?), that original dwelling place of the et'Ada. Too much for now.
On the Hurling Disk:
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The Selectives claim a similar source of power in their depictions of the Right Reaching, but that has not deterred those magicians which still try to fathom the meaning of the middle dawn and what benefits they may derive from that understanding.
Right Reaching being mentioned in Sermon 21 and possibly referring to transcendance. Also mentioned again is the middle dawn as a means to some deeper understanding of the cosmos.
Well, I'm done for now. Again, comments are welcome. Especially on the possible meaning of the middle dawn.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Mafafu, i'd just like to start by saying that this is very impressive stuff - i believe i can help your understanding of the 'middle dawn' - all quotes come from Where were you when the Dragon Broke?
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The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke. The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned.
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Mehra Nabisi, Dunmer, Triune Mistress of the New Temple:
“Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra.
The 'middle dawn' is a reference to the period during which time was disrupted by the Dragon Break - i hope this helps make clear your queries
Phil
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I am pleased to see that you have grasped the numerological significance of thirteen. The second serpent is indeed the 'little hunger', that is as the Yokudan creation myth explains this phenomenon.
Consider, for a moment now, the substance of Lorkhan;
We know about his Heart in the 'Star-wounded' East; solid and Static.
We are inclined (or we are not) towards a possibility that the moons are the polarised substance of his broken divine body.
Clan Mother Ahnissi recounts that "the heart of Lorkhaj was filled with the great darkness". The Yokudan creation myth tells us that, when Tall Papa (Akatosh) 'punished' Lorkhan, the Hunger fell from his mouth.
So now we begin to perceive that there may be another part to this enigma - the void. The offspring of the paternal emptiness, the shadow of Padhome within the lower order of the egg-layered universe. Anti-enchantment to the earthed, static bridge that is his Heart, is the 'hunger' of Lorkhan.
All of the Aedra, Lorkhan notwithstanding, have their original being through an interaction of Anu and Padhome and contained within them them all are the essences of both of these two poles. Thus, this separation - this Cloven Duality - of divinity is a separation into component substances.
Like his static nature, the Heart, the protean nature of Lorkhan, the Hunger, is now unleashed; unharnessed from his static identity.
And within this void lies the power to Change.
Even the power to Break.
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Ahh, if Akatosh, the chief of the Aedra, can break, then couldn't (shouldn't) other Aedra 'break' as well? And is this breaking a bad thing? The Aedra aren't supposed to be able to change, but perhaps there is a loophole, a way around this, a way for them to survive.
Perhaps Akatosh is performing the 'Walkabout' when it is thought that he is breaking. He is moving at strange angles, so maybe times gets distorted. It has been said that the Dragon Break will occur again. Perhaps it will, the next time Akatosh performs the Walkabout.
If the Dragon Break does have something to do with the Walkabout, that would explain why Vivec describes the middle dawn as a gateway and a key to understanding.
Perhaps when the walkabout is performed, the center of the walker cannot hold. The Anu/Padomay duality splits, the walker is broken, and has the ability to change, the ability to survive beyond the Mundus. But the lesser spirits may also be able to perform this, as Akatosh set the stars just so as directions to them.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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I would avoid getting too sidetracked by The Walkabout, mafafu, I would say that it bears little relationship to a Break of The Dragon.
Indeed to talk about Breaking The Dragon is itself misleading. Vehk, more correctly, uses the term "breakings of the sideways wheel". That is a separation of the cardinal points of The Wheel through an assault of the Tower ideal.
As I see this phenomenon, it is not Time that is thus broken, as such, but the relationships that tie The Wheel together and which thereby constrain Time to linear expression.
Such an assault causes a temporary interruption of the 'natural' moment of The Wheel, releasing Akatosh from linear expression and subjecting the Mundic sphere to the "ever now".
"Without the persistence of linear Time, how then do you explain your use of the term 'temporary'", I would ask where I you?
'Where Were You...' says this;
The Council has collected texts and accounts from all of its provinces, and they only offer stories that never coincide, save on one point:
all the folk of Tamriel during the Middle Dawn, in whatever 'when' they were caught in, tracked the fall of the eight stars. And that is how they counted their days.
So, although the Mundus was without linear Time (and this is why the experience is known as a 'Dragon Break'), there was an overriding temporal line - the renewing of The Wheel, the relationships that bind the eight gift-limbs, or as it appeared to mortals eyes, "the fall of the eight stars". Thus the relationships that govern and bind The Wheel are strong, too strong in fact to be permanently broken by the Selectives' Reaching, and the motion of The Wheel is apparently assured even while 'broken', or it is perhaps better to say separated.
So this is a 'Break' (and that is all), while I contend that other transcendant motions are principally individual circumventions of the limits of The Wheel without the universal impact of a Break.
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Quote:
I would avoid getting too sidetracked by The Walkabout
Okay, but the Dragon Break is still very important here, right? (It's a numinous gateway according to Vivec, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's connected)
Also, the Walkabout at the very least seems like a different way to do the same thing (or come upon the same knowledge), doesn't it?
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Quote:
Also, the Walkabout at the very least seems like a different way to do the same thing (or come upon the same knowledge), doesn't it?
"To do the same thing" as in disrupt The Wheel - no I would not say so. The Walkabout is a form of transcendant motion by which the cycles of Satakal (Anu/Padhome) were not directly disrupted.
Those theoretical immortals that failed to grasp The Walkabout would still have been consumed by the Padhomic destruction of Akel, the 'hungry stomach'.
The Walkabout stopped being relevant to those who were 'trapped' within the structure of The Wheel, in any case ('The Monomyth');
Pretty soon the spirits on the skin-ball started to die, because they were very far from the real world of Satakal. And they found that it was too far to jump into the Far Shores now.
The spirits that were left pleaded with Tall Papa to take them back. But grim Ruptga would not, and he told the spirits that they must learn new ways to follow the stars to the Far Shores now.
At best, I see The Walkabout as a pre-type for mortal transcendance.
The Selectives, on the other hand, were not pursuing transcendance when they brought about the historic Dragon Break. Their primary intention involved a direct disruption of the relationships of The Wheel, and they succeeded in this at least, if only for a time. Although, what they truly desired was impossible to obtain.
Aren't transcendant motions related to the Center? Quite possibly.
Is the historic Dragon Break related to the Center? Most assuredly.
Does this help?
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*BUMP*
Comments anyone (Mafafu, Alastor, B - not to mention anyone in particular )?
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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*BuMp*
(again, sorry  )
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Quote:
The Aedra aren't supposed to be able to change, but perhaps there is a loophole
Good, good.
And here you get delightfully close, in regards to your study, at least. Nought prececes authenticity... so, if this is true:
Which of the Aedra have done this?
What was the change?
What was the agent of change?
What mythical significance happened thereafter?
What destruction (and therefore creation) came of it?
I give you this as Vivec.
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If i may, i believe i can supply some answers, using the Monomyth
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What was the agent of change?
The agent of change was the creation of Akatosh, the Time Dragon
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What was the change?
With the creation of Akatosh, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some of the et'Ada to know themselves, as they can see a past and future in their lives
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Which of the Aedra have done this?
I believe Aedra to be the wrong term here - et'Ada, or Original Spirits would perhaps be better - for me the Aedra are those of the Spirits who underwent the change and grew into a stronger form
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What mythical significance happened thereafter?
The strongest of the Aedra, Lorkhan (another catalyst of change, and perhaps the one Vehk wished us to select ), details a plan to create a mortal plane, the Mundus
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What destruction (and therefore creation) came of it?
Some of the Aedra are bound into the Earth-Bones, forming the Mundus - their bodies are destroyed to create the plane of the mortal realm - Lorkhan is destroyed also, his body ripped asunder allowing his divine spark to fall to Mundus. At least a small part of the Grey Maybe is subject to change, destroying Stasis' hold on the region, and allowing mortal life to flourish
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Thank you for your response, Vehk.
I must take time to ponder these questions, along with your new revelations and my old ramblings, in order to make an appropriate response and perhaps further this research.
I do believe that Phil has made a good start into answering your questions though. (Thanks, Phil)
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Quote:
Quote:
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Which of the Aedra have done this?
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I believe Aedra to be the wrong term here - et'Ada, or Original Spirits would perhaps be better - for me the Aedra are those of the Spirits who underwent the change and grew into a stronger form
...
...
I never use the wrong terms, little one, except on purpose.
I did and do mean Aedra, and therefore extract my question back into the timeframe we should have in mind. That is, after the first dawn and world's cooling.
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Quote:
Which of the Aedra have done this?
Only one I can think of is Trinimac.
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What was the change?
He was changed from an Aedra to an outcast Daedra, or at least that is how he is seen now.
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What was the agent of change?
Um Boethiah.
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What mythical significance happened thereafter?
Well in a sense the Daedra showed their power over the Aedra. This act also seems to mark the beginning of the Chimer as being a seperate race from the Altmer.
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What destruction (and therefore creation) came of it?
Well the Altmer's chief diety was destroyed and Malacath was created. Also the Orsimer were created out of Trinimac's followers because of this.
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Another interesting interpretation. It may also be important to note that it was Boethiah that first taught people of the "Tri-angled Truth", the "Psijic Endeavor", the "Provisonal House", and the "Walking Ways" among other things. So this change was contemporary to these divine revelations.
However, I'm still not sure as to the true importance of this event and if this is what Vehk was referring to. For instance, Lorkhan went from one living Aedra to a sundered dead Aedra. I guess this is change, although I doubt if this is something Aedra typically strive for. Lorkhan wanted to show others what he found/did, so maybe this was part of the plan.
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What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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I think it is fair to raise Trinimac as an example of Change in the being of an Aedra, although his was not the first Aedric experience of transformation.
We know that wherever Change affects Stasis, from the Beginning Place until now, it is regarded as both destructive and creative.
This can be seen in the principles of the Grey Maybe that led to the fashioning of the substance of the et'Ada themselves, where Padhome's nature sculpted the fringes of Anu into patterns of possibility.
That the Daedra cannot be killed is a relative perspective. For them, 'death' signifies little. Destruction of their present shape is just another form of Change and so they reshape themselves and continue.
For the Aedra, who are Stasis-aligned, Change itself can surely only be regarded as a form of death.
That is to say, a loss of their Static perfection.
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Quote:
I never use the wrong terms, little one, except on purpose
I sit suitably chastised Lord Vehk, and apologise for my impudence in presuming the mistake - perhaps i was aiming to early in my interpretation then? It seems that your questions have multiple answers - is this not always the way with a puzzle 
Phil
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It just occured to me that I nver really took a stab at your questions, Vehk. So, here goes:
>Which of the Aedra have done this (changed) ?
Although Trinimac was mentioned already, I think Lorkhan is a more important answer.
>What was the change?
He was torn asunder, having his Heart and his Void split from his being. (His divine center couldn't hold)
>What was the agent of change?
According to the Altmer, Trinimac tore out Lorkhan's Heart.
>What mythical significance happened thereafter?
Well, lots. Both the Heart and the Void have been used as a source of great power causing some of the most imporant events in the history of Nirn.
>What destruction (and therefore creation) came of it?
Well, Lorkhan and his center were "destroyed" in that they were split in two, although he still exists now in some changed state. That's the destruction, but I'm uncertain to the creation here (perhaps a gateway to a certain Tower?)
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Good to see you continuing this excellent analysis Mafafu, i really must get around to resurrecting my own investigations some time soon!!
Phil
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*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*
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Better late than never, Mafafu (I mean my own response, of course). Thank you for bringing this study back to my attention. 
IMHO, Vehk's questions relate to a time slightly 'earlier' (if that term can correctly be ascribed to the instability of the Dawn Era) than the events surrounding Lorkhan's fate at the Adamantine Tower.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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I believe that I may have been thinking wrong-headed when last I attempted these questions so if I may I would like another stab at them.
"Which of the Aedra have done this?"
It would seem to me that all of them have, but most specificly Akatosh. And he has changed many times.
"What was the change?"
The change was change. Time is linear yet when the dragon is broken time becomes non-linear again which allowed for the manipulation of Akatosh along with the rest of the Aedra that participated in the creation of the mundus are changed with Akatosh's healing.
"What was the agent of change?"
In the specific example I am currently pondering it was the Balac-thurm, the Staff of Chaos. Other incredibly powerful artifacts have been used depending on the circumstances.
"What mythical significance happened thereafter?"
The wheel was broken creating a path to the Tower. The Aedra can and were changed to fit the wishes of those who found their own path to the Tower.
"What destruction (and therefore creation) came of it?"
The destruction of the old timeline created the new one where the Aedra were comprised of human influences inplace of the merish traits they held in the old timeline.
I can't help but think that Mnemoli is somehow tied to all of this, and a very important piece of the puzzle, yet I am still unable to see exactly where she fits in.
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The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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Quote:
*BUMP*
Comments anyone (Mafafu, Alastor, B - not to mention anyone in particular )?
The lessson of Vivec is that divinity is only what you make it. In truth, like most "mundane" ideas that mortals share, the idea of divinity is nothing more than a description for something the uninitiated cannot grasp.
O = unending cycle of beginning/end
I = an undefinable and infinite set of instances with a beginning/end that means nothing.
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Sun Tzu - "The peak efficiency of knowledge and strategy is to make conflict unnecessary.”
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Nice, Nazz. It was your recent thread that set me on my path of re-examining the Center. Indeed they do seem closely related. First, however, I must lay some more groundwork for the coming theory.
Witness Vehk's recent teaching:
Quote:
What is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor?
... It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster.
…
What examples of the Psijic Endeavor exist today?
The world you stand on is said to be the first attempt at chim. It is also admittedly the most famous. That it was choreographed by Lorkhan and ultimately failed is well-documented, but whether or not this failure was intentional is still disputed.
and
Quote:
What is the hub of the Wheel?
We are the hub, the Mundus that goes by many names. We are the heart of all creation. What does this mean? Why should we care? Lorkhan created it so that we could find what he did.
Also recall that 'chim' is the goal of the Psijic Endeavor, the state to be attained. And that these terms may be used almost synonymously.
Now if the Mundus is an attempt to achieve chim, that failed, and chim is the center the dawning needs in order to hold, then the Center cannot hold because the Mundus is a failed attempt at chim. It is conceivable to think that a successful attempt at chim might contain a center that can hold, whatever that may mean. That is, the implications of a successful state of chim over a failed chim seem unclear. However, I believe it was this failing that allows the inhabitants of Mundus to attempt this Psijic Endeavor.
Lorkhan failed so that we might know how not to AND
Lorkhan created it so that we could find what he did.
Next, let us look at just 'when' the Center cannot hold. If the Center is the Mundus, then what is holding it in place within the wheel? Why the spokes, of course. Now why might the spokes be able to hold the Center? That is, what event could occur to disrupt the connection of the spokes to the hub? And just why am I asking so many questions?
Well, the answer seems quite obvious, assuming I'm on the correct path here. A Dragon Break dispupts the structure of the wheel such that the Center cannot hold. Here's where Nazz's study really comes in. If this is all the case, then it is when the Center is not holding that the Tower may be achieved. After all, why is the dragon break referred to as the middle dawn? Think about the dawn era and what was occuring then. This, to me, means that a major restructuring of the wheel is occuring and possibly one that would allow someone to achieve chim (perhaps unsuccessfully, giving way for the next attempt). I will conclude this with another quote that seems to reinforce my idea about the Center during a break and what can happen at that time.
Quote:
“…and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies
Numinous Gateway? I believe that it is the imperfection of the wheel that allows the breaking, which in turn allows a restructuring, which in turn can lead to chim and the Tower.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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I don't really have anything to add, but I would definately agree with all that.
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The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
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Anybody else??
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Perhaps the Dragon Break was the detachment of the 'spokes' connecting the outter 'wheel' to the inner 'hub'. This would cause the 'hub' to move at a different rate to the outter 'wheel' and would explain a few things. Firstly, that would be why the eight stars 'fell' to Earth. They were normally 'attached' to the 'hub', but now that they weren't, the Eight 'spoke' stars moved at a different rate to the 'hub'. It may also explain why time slowed, or became non-linear. The closer the 'hub' came to slowing down, the more displaced time became.
Since the break wasn't absolute, the 'spokes' re-attached them selves to the 'hub', and that was when time ran normally once more.
I may be completely wrong, but perhaps it's something to think about.
-Attrebus
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Remember the 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered always.
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Mafafu and Nazz, I have much to say on the latest developments of your approaches to this subject. I would like to consider the many streams of thought that they have invoked before I add anything further.
But I will just say that this comment ...
Quote:
Now if the Mundus is an attempt to achieve chim, that failed, and chim is the center the dawning needs in order to hold, then the Center cannot hold because the Mundus is a failed attempt at chim. It is conceivable to think that a successful attempt at chim might contain a center that can hold...
... is brilliantly insightful (more so than you may realise).
Attrebus - you also make some interesting points, I am pleased that you are showing such insight. Stri'Ker would be proud.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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>What was the agent of change?
The onset of time.
>What was the change?
The realization of the I (self awareness/independence/choice).
>Which of the Aedra have done this?
Lorkhan..desire/need (emotions) before actuality.
>What mythical significance happened thereafter?
The creation of the mortal plane (the foci).
>What destruction (and therefore creation) came of it?
The destruction of Lorkhan's "physical" being and the creation of the method (the mundus) to transcend (be seperate from/not subject to/escape) the known planes of existance (to evolve/change/progress).
I think Lorkhan tried to explain to the Aedra and most of them didn't understand, or perhaps they couldn't.
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When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
- Sherlock Holmes
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Forgive me this incoherent chain of thoughts, but I think it may contain at least SOME points to be considered.
Is the second serpent really Lorkhan? Maybe it is rather his creation,the Mundus.
Sermon 21:
Quote:
'They are the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT, the wet earth of the new star our home. Outside them is the Aurbis, and not within. Like most things inexplicable, it is a circle. Circles are confused serpents, striking and striking and never given leave to bite. The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed. '
The second circle could be the inner circle of the Wheel, Mundus (inc ontrast to the outer circle, Aurbis).
In this case, the second serpent at the centre of the tower is actually Mundus. It makes sense that the second serpent holds secret triangular gate, the gateway to the tower - wasnt Mundus created as gateway to the tower?
Why is it referred to as a hole then, begotten or not? I am unsure about it, but - as said several times here already, this centre, Mundus, is an unstable centre, because it was a purposefully failed attempt at chim. This makes it, metaphorical, a hole in the middle, maybe.
Womb-Ready I think means "ready to be created". The Right Reaching was seemingly a method of the Maruhkati selectives. So, Munds was ready to be created by a ritual of the Selectiuves? Why not. Maybe REcreated, during the dragon break, which shattered the wheel for a time, but following this made it also whole again. And mundus does indeed only "work" properly if connected to the wheel, so reconnecting Mundus would indeed be similar to recreating Mundus.
"Without enchantment" is then in my opinion just another way of saying "exact". Exact because it was constucted? or it important to describe the exactness because it is important for the Right Reaching? I do not know, either way, it CAN be intepretated.
Another thing to be considered is the numerology in Sermon 29. Lord Vehk warns us not to take this too important, but this does in my opinion not mean it should be all-ignored. At the moment my thoughts are on the numerology, so I think I could mention this:
The Sword at the Centre is 39.
What is the sword? Primary, this text from the sermons, Sermon 13:
Quote:
'The sword is the cross and ALMSIVI is the Triune house around it. If there is to be an end I must be removed. The ruling king must know this, and I will test him. I will murder him time and again until he knows this. I am the defender of the last and the last. To remove me is to refill the heart that lay dormant at the center that cannot hold. I am the sword, Ayem the star, Seht the mechanism that allows the transformation of the world. Ours is the duty to keep the compromise from being filled with black sea.
Lord Vehk sees himself as the centre of ALMSIVI? He is the sword, which is the cross at the centre of ALMSIVI.
Chronologically, that is before ALMSIVIS apotheosis, so the heart is still dormant. Still, the sermons are not exactly chronological, so to remove Lord Vehk, or all of ALMSIVI would refill the hart they draw their powers from.
But the important conclusion is: Lord Vehk places himself "at the centre" (if now ALMSIVI, or what centre ever in the numerlogy, who knows?), and does in the metaphor of a sword.
Quote:
'This is why I say the secret to swords is the mercy seat. It is my throne. I am become the voice of ALMSIVI. The world will know me more than my sister and brother. I am the psychopomp. I am the killer of the weeds of Veloth. Veloth is the center that cannot hold. Ayem is the plot. Seht is the ending. I am the enigma that must be removed. These are why my words are armed to the teeth.
He uses this metaphor because the sword is a symbol for mercy - is that not Lady Ayems domain? And he uses the metaphor, because it kills Veloth Weeds. Indeed, here the centre is not the mundus. With Veloth I think the Dunmer/Chimmer are meant, whose spirtual cenrte cannot hold anymore, to overgrown by weed, bad spirituality that is. I think Lod Vehk tells us here that ALMSIVI had to be replace Veloth a spsirtual centre of the Dunmer, and Lord Vehk, as most populkar Tribun, was the one who didmost to replace the old spirtual system of the Dunmer.
Still, this surely was also taken into the sermons as one further example of a centre that cannot hold. Sermon 13 gives us 3 (!) such examples.
While the mecry thing still makesme dubious, it is only fair to come away from the swords and now alsolook at the third example (I know I am jumpy here, but what I write down are my only barely ordered thought processes, which ARE jumpy):
Quote:
The magical cross is an integration of the worth of mortals at the expense of their spirits. Surround it with the triangle and you begin to see the Triune house. It becomes divided into corners, which are ruled by our brethren, the Four Corners: BAL DAGON MALAC SHEOG. Rotate the triangle and you pierce the heart of the Beginning Place, the foul lie, the testament of the irrefutable-for-a-span. Above them all is the horizon where only one stands, though no one stands there yet. It is proof of the new. It is the promise of the wise. Unfold the whole and what you have is a star, which is not my domain, but not entirely outside my judgment. The grand design takes flight; it is transformed not only into a star but a hornet. The center cannot hold. It becomes devoid of lines and points. It becomes devoid of anything and so becomes a receptacle. This is its usefulness at the end. This is its promise
The centre cannot hold when the whole is unfolded. Now, what is the whole? A sword-cross, surrounded with the Triangle of ALMSIVI, and divided into its 4 corners (hm, arent two corners within ALMSIVI then? Ah well...), aove which is a (as of yet) empty horizon. Now, unfolding is in my opinion "raising the system to a higher level" - to the level of a star, metaphor for perfectness. But the system cannot substain this leave. Teh centre becoems unstable - the beginning place. As was said, Mundus is unstable because of its creation - the beginning place, teh centre, in this example. The centre, Mundus, is unstable because its own centre, the creation, is/was unstable.
The star becoems a hornet, because the system eridate. Hornets are renowned for their agressivity. Then, that is the end stadium of the system? Degenrated and agressive - before it completly erodes.
What does this mean? The centre cannot hold, but does, because the system of the world is unfold, that is, "on a low level"?
And this is its promise, and its use at the end. Well, makes sense. Should Mundus unfold, reach a higher level - then this is the Psijic Endeavour, and Mundus would reach chim. Then Mundus would have fulfilled its purpose, and would most likely be replaced, because then there would be no use for it anymore.
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Susano, I think your ideas have a lot of merit.
One of the things that shouldn't be forgotten is that metaphorical, poetic language has advantages over scientific language; it doesn't have to be one symbol, one concept.
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You make some good points. Some of what you speak has been touched on before here (particularly the first half of your post), so you may want to skim through the previous posts for more info about the second serpent, the exact womb, and the Right-Reaching. You can also see the some of the same themes in Nazz's thread on the Aedra, if you haven't read that already.
I don't really have time right now to focus and reply to all of your points, but it does give me more to think about.
Also, remember what Vehk said about the Center:
Quote:
There is no true symbolism of the center.
And I myself have had issues about which object represents the center, but there are multiple interpretations, especially depending on the context of the usage. I think the Mundus is the most important interpretation, at least for the latest findings presented here.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
What is the Tower? Well, it looks like a piano sounds shortly after being dropped down a well. It tastes yellow, and feels Paisley. It smells like a total eclipse of the moon. Of course, nearer to the tower it gets really weird. ~TP
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Quote:
"What was the agent of change?"
In the specific example I am currently pondering it was the Balac-thurm, the Staff of Chaos. Other incredibly powerful artifacts have been used depending on the circumstances.
I'd like to propose an answer for thought. It is along similar lines but not quite the same as Nazz's. In the particular instance that Nazz describes I would have to say that the agents of change were mortal. In the mafafu's case it was Trinimac. In both cases it was an entity other than the (an, depending on whether Trinimac is considered an Aedra or not) Aedra. The Aedra are the most Anu aligned beings in the structure of the Wheel. They resist change, possibly even back to a state of perfection, and cannot change themselves (or others?).
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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I suppose since this has been bumped to keep from being deleted (thanks Archie), now is the best time to post some new stuff. It's not really so much new as it is previous topics reorganized into one coherent (maybe) piece. Here it is:
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This study will examine the metaphorical representation of ‘the center that cannot hold’ discussed in Vivec’s Sermons.
“The center cannot hold. It becomes devoid of lines and points. It becomes devoid of anything and so becomes a receptacle. This is its usefulness at the end. This is its promise.” [1]
This description of the center leaves much as a mystery, but becomes clearer upon further inspection. Vivec himself put the nature of the subject best when he said, “There is no true symbolism of the center.” [2] The center can in fact be conceived differently depending on your viewpoint and how the Sermons are being interpreted. These concepts of the center will be examined from simplest, but least useful, to the most complex, but most useful.
The first glimpse at the meaning of the center is found when Vivec states that the Heart (of Lorkhan) is in the center that cannot hold [3]. Geographically, this means that the center could be Mundus, Vvardenfell, or Red Mountain, from least to most specific. Red Mountain is further indicated as the location of the center by the reference to the Sharmat “sleeping” there. The Sharmat, or devil, is Dagoth Ur, who sleeps at the center of Red Mountain near the Heart of Lorkhan. It could be said that this center cannot hold because the blight of Dagoth Ur cannot be contained. However, this seems to be an oversimplification, as it offers little explanation for Vivec’s other statements about the center.
The next and most obvious center is the Heart of Lorkhan. The Heart is half of the center of the dead god Lorkhan that was torn out of him by Trinimac [4]. The other half of his center can be seen in the un-stars that make up the thirteenth constellation, the Serpent [5]. If the center does refer to the center of Lorkhan, then it perhaps means that Lorkhan’s divine spark, at the center of his being, can no longer hold together his substance. Again, however, this in and of itself is not overly remarkable.
Further illumination, however, comes when reflecting on this concept with the Tower in mind. The Tower can be seen by viewing the wheel sideways [6] and represents the goal of the Psijic Endeavour. Within the center of the Heart, that static component of Lorkhan’s divine spark, lies the secret gate [7] that leads to the secret tower. But if the Heart is the center that cannot hold, is it then this gate that it cannot hold?
When the center cannot hold, it “becomes a receptacle” [8]. Using the Heart as the center, it may hold those that would tap its power. But again, why is it that it cannot hold those beings? Again, using this as the concept of the center seems too simplistic and does not hold consistent with the rest of the lore about the center.
The most promising candidate for the center is the center of the wheel, which is not the Heart, but the Mundus. In the Wheel, it is the Aedric planets that hold the Mundus in the center of the Wheel. If the center, the Mundus, cannot hold, then a Dragon Break is what causes this phenomenon. During a Dragon Break, the spokes of the Wheel become disconnected from the Mundus, allowing it to move freely within the Wheel. [9]
According to Vivec the Mundus was and is Lorkhan’s attempt at the Psijic Endeavour in order to achieve a state of chim. The Psijic Endeavour is a transcendence not only beyond the mortal laws and world, but also beyond the world of the divine. Lorkhan’s attempt at the Endeavour failed; however according to Vivec, it is quite possible that he did so on purpose, in order to show mortals how not to fail. When speaking on the purpose of the Psijic Endeavour Vivec says, “Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster.” [10] The use of the word dawning here relates to the dawn era, that time when the Mundus was first created. That is, the creation of the Mundus can be referred to as a dawning.
Mundus is an attempt at the Psijic Endeavour and because it is a failed attempt, the center cannot hold. So, it is the essence of the Psijic Endeavour that is needed in order for the center to hold. It is then conceivable to think that a successful attempt at chim might contain a center that can hold. In this case, the center would be able to hold that dawning together without disaster. This must mean that the new dawning is strong enough to resist its equivalent of a Dragon Break.
Lorkhan failed so that mortals could learn from his mistake, and it is possible that his mistake is what allows mortals to attempt the Psijic Endeavour. He failed, and thus the center cannot hold, which then means that it is possible for a Dragon Break to occur. The Dragon Break is more than most suspect:
“…and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies.” [11]
A possible interpretation for the numinous gateway is as a means to achieving the Psijic Endeavour. It would then be at this point that the center becomes a receptacle, opens its gateway, and becomes useful by allowing its inhabitant to achieve chim. It is even the divine essence of Lorkhan himself that have been known to cause Dragon Breaks, further illustrating his apparent wish to aid mortals in the Psijic Endeavour.
To further illuminate this concept, Vivec, in his Scripture of the Numbers equated the number one with “The Dragon Break, or the Tower”. The Tower (and its secret) is a representation of the state of chim. That is, the Tower is the goal of the Psijic Endeavour. It may be that while the wheel has lost its structure due to the Dragon Break, that some type of restructuring can occur that will allow an individual to perform the Psijic Endeavour and reach the Tower. This is one possible explanation for the connection between the Dragon Break and the Tower that further illustrates Lorkhan’s failure aiding in the Psijic Endeavour.
If this is so, then the Dragon Break phenomenon is meant to allow mortals to reach the state of chim, due to Lorkhan’s purposeful failure, which created the center that cannot hold.
[1] ‘Sermon 13’, v13-14, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/numbers.html#13_13)
[2] ‘Sermon 11’, v9, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/numbers.html#11_9)
[3] ‘Sermon 13’, v19, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/numbers.html#13_19)
[4] ‘The Monomyth’, Temple Zero Society. (http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml)
[5] Elder Scrolls Cosmology FAQ, Temple Zero Society. (http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/cosmology.shtml)
[6] The Tower, v22, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/tower.html#22)
[7] ‘Sermon 21’, v12, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/numbers.html#21_12)
[8] ‘Sermon 13’, v14, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/numbers.html#13_14)
[9] ‘Where were you when the Dragon Broke?”, Various. (http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/mwbooks/dragonbroke.shtml)
[10] ‘More on the Psijic Endeavour’, Vivec. (http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/vehk/vehk07.shtml)
[11] ‘Book of Hours’ , v5, Vivec. (http://www.whirlingschool.net/hours.html#5)
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Comments and further ideas are welcome.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters
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I think this is a wonderful and worthy summary to your study (so far) Mafafu. I have just re-read it once more with fresher eyes and I like the way you have reigned in your focus to return to the core of the topic, "Just what is the Center and what does it mean?"
The conclusions you reach are startling and fresh, especially where you relate the Tower to the Dragon. You have expressed them far more clearly here than you have before and I find myself excitedly agreeing with you.
I definitely want to publish this on the WS site, I'll see to it when I get around to that update I keep threatening.
Reading through the final section of your thoughts, the words that Vehk reminded me of, a year ago, floated back into my mind and revealed themselves with new clarity;
"In the end, rejoice as a hostage released from drumming torment but that savors his wound.
The drum breaks and you find it to be a nest of hornets, which is to say: your sleep is over."
What is the significance of the Aedric name Lorkhan, or 'Doom Drum'? To the Aedra, this is what he was, dooming them to be 'captives' of the Mundus.
But from our perspective, it is the Aedra that enslave; the EarthBones are the bars of our mortal condition. They create a perpetual cycle of mundane unawareness from birth to death for all mortals.
When the Drum Breaks, we can perceive the "nest of hornets" that are responsible for perpetuating this 'drumming torment' and leave behind the sleep of ignorance.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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